Friday, May 1, 2009


Lisa your last entry has stuck like glue. I followed the link; read that article and did a little more research. Oh, what a tangled web we’ve woven. Trouble is the only folks we’ve deceived are ourselves.

I’m not sure how the pollers came up with their sample. Less than eight hundred people: all white. White evangelical Protestants, white non Hispanic Catholics, white mainline Protestants and presumably white unaffiliated individuals. Is it easier to say it’s ok because frankly none of these people are likely to end up being tortured? They sure as hell don’t face the threat of being stopped for DWB (driving while black) or being targeted by la migra (INS) or an over zealous county sheriff.

WTF is going on here? Is it easier to justify “enhanced interrogation” techniques because you can’t imagine yourself, your family, your friends or your neighbors being on the receiving end of waterboarding, being slammed in walls, suspended by your arms for hours on end, doused in cold water and left naked in a cold room, or even being stuffed in a box about the size of a coffin? Do too many of us check our empathy or sympathy at the sanctuary door?

What happened to the greatest commandment:“Do unto others as you would have done unto you and love your neighbor as yourself; this fulfills the law and the prophets?” (or words to that effect)

Or in Matthew 25? I’ll assume for the sake of argument that at least the evangelicals are familiar with those verses. We’re told that if we care for the sick, the widows, the orphans or the prisoners we are caring for Jesus himself. If this is true; then who are we torturing?


Lisa :-] said...

The other day, we were in a parking lot and my sisters saw a bumper sticker that I have seen many times. They exclaimed, "wow, how true is that?"

It was the Ghandi quote that goes something like, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."

True enough. Somehow, I can't see the man who, according to tradition, raised the dead, cleansed lepers & made blind men see, standing with a hood over his head presiding over a waterboarding.

Anne said...

We are all deeply flawed and those of us who acknowledge it are better for it. I don't blame my flaws on my church or my gender or my race. I am guilty of prolifing; sometimes for the better, often times not. At the airport, I hope they do profile.
I didn't even understand about waterboarding until I watched a U tube broadcast. During war lots of things happen that are not on a straight and narrow path. The old hymns speak of "Onward Christain Soldier.....marhing off to WAR!" I am sure Jews and Muslims have their own version for their religon. Although I don't like the idea of waterboarding, I don't like the idea of what has been done to American soldiers during war either. Religion and politics are seldom good bed mates.
Also, this is conservative Christain based pole, so feel free to participate. Conservative organized religion has always been trying to tell people how to think and vote. Anne

Lisa :-] said...


I'm sorry, but "they do it to OUR soldiers" is not a good reason to torture. Someone has to set the example. Someone has to acknowledge that there is a moral high road, and take it. Someone has to call human beings to be the best these great brains of ours can make us. Without someone setting the bar somewhere above evil, lust, greed, revenge, hatred and distrust, the human race will for good and all descend into that hell and destroy itself.

Anne said...

War, tortune, poverty, illness, cruelty, opression, racism and all of the wort part of humanity will always exsist. I can't change the world or the way of WAR. War is hell. There is no good reason for torture it just exists whether I want it to or not. It always has and always will.
I truely beleive there is a Mother Teresa and a Hitler in each and everyone of us. I can only be responsible for myself.

sunflowerkat321 said...

Anne and Lisa are both right. There is good and evil in all of us and we each make choices based on our morals and values. And wartimes throughout history have been fraught with terrible inhumane acts. But, it is up to the CIVILIZED people of the world to set an example and clearly draw a line at what is unacceptable human behavior. As long as we condone torture in any form, it will continue. It will be used to overthrow and/or control "the enemy", and is not conducive to coming to peaceful terms.

In the case of Al Quaida, we are not dealing with rational people. But it is not an excuse for use to allow irrationality. For a major power like the US to allow torture only provides more reason for the extremists to hate us. And how can we convince the rest of the civilized world to rally with us when we are open to inhumane practices?

Lisa :-] said...

A Cherokee elder was teaching his children about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to them.

“It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too.”

The grandchildren thought about it and after a minute one of them asked, “Which wolf will win?”

The elder simply replied, “The one you feed.”
Yes, Anne, there is a Mother Teresa and a Hitler inside each one of us.

And we need to "feed" the Mother Teresa. And you don't do that by condoning torture.

JACKIE said...

I have heard the story of the wolves; I may have blogged on it a couple of years ago. It is only too true.

Even with Adolph Hitler's genes without the triggers of WWI, the fall of the German Empire, other problems in Europe and the virulent anti semitism of the times your modern day Hitler just might end up an uninspired architect with a flair for public speaking.

who knows.

Anne said...

I understand all sides of this. BUT, and there is always a but, how does one go about stopping torture? Have you written your congressmen or emailed them? What can you do besides write about it. Is the United Nations even discussing this matter? Is this a priority with our president? There are many problems with the world, but what are the answers?
I have great respect for all of you and I hope that this is considered a valid and respectful formun for discussion. Anne

Anne said...

Please excuse the typo's. I shall fire my proof reader. Anne

lisaram said...

What do I DO? Well, I DO write about it. This is hardly a private forum. I attempt to state my case and educate from this forum, even if it's only to a few.

And as far as it being a priority for our president, I believe Mr. Obama has come out and said in so many words, "The United States does not torture." I think he has made this as much priority as possible, while dealing with trying to clean up the thousand and one other messes the Bush Administration left him.

And of course your opinions are welcome here. We have always invited everyone to comment openly on Women On. But when your comment brings to mind more points for me to argue...well, that's what I do! ;)